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Post by hgtsang on Jul 9, 2007 17:17:02 GMT -5
Hello... I am new to trail running and wanted to poll people on running techniques / warm-up stretches that help lessen wear and tear on the knees and ankles... particularly from running the down hill portion of the runs. I've found that there's much more aches and pains after running trails than regular flat terrain running (my knees/ankles take a pounding!) and want to limit it so I can do more trail runs!
Are warm-up stretches key? Or, shorter strides while coming down??
Thanks
Dan
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Post by rickgaston on Jul 9, 2007 18:21:54 GMT -5
Dan,
I would definitely read up on proper form for going downhill. Good place to start. Personally, I use short strides. I was taught to always stay on top of my feet and not over extend my stride to protect my knees. Not to lean back on the downhills and increase feet turnover to increase speed. Keeps you nimble on the technical stuff too. I also found that I stayed upright most of the time when I did slip on the slippery stuff; gravel, mud. Since you are new to trail running, could it be that your body is still getting used to the uneven terrain?
Rick
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Post by hgtsang on Jul 9, 2007 18:35:39 GMT -5
What is 'feet turnover'? Not to lean back on the downhills and increase feet turnover to increase speed. Rick |
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Post by rickgaston on Jul 9, 2007 20:03:46 GMT -5
Another way of saying "increase your steps". To run faster increase the number of steps and don't extend your stride.
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Post by Miss Mary on Jul 12, 2007 15:18:10 GMT -5
Best way to prevent injuries is to strengthen your core muscles that will help with knee/ankle impacts. There are many ways to do this, but for me what works best is working on core & stability issues. For me, I have ankle problems. So I've found that a balance board/ball helps strengthen my ankles tremendously and works my core as well when including proper breathing techniques and posture. There are other types of stretches, exercises that help with the core, but I can't think of them right now. All of this definitely helps with the trail running over rocks and stuff. Basically I use anything for balance like this: www.fitter1.com/balance.htmlThese type of work outs can be fun, for instance, once you're able to balance on one foot for 20-30 seconds, have someone throw you a ball or something while trying to balance. It's fun to do too! And integrates core training when you focus on your breathing (deep breaths, etc.)  |
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Post by wildrunner on Jul 13, 2007 0:22:47 GMT -5
Another way to think about going downhill is to engage! Engage your muscles, especially those around your knee, like the quadriceps. There seems to be a bit of information out there that tells you to "let go" on the downhill and to not hold back speed, but I have experimented with this, and my knees and I much prefer the controled descent. What's more, that description of going downhill makes it sound like a very passive experience. It's not! Think about contracting your core muscles and engaging your quads when your step. Don't let your feet and speed carry you away; instead, let your core take you down. So basically, what they all said. Best, Libby |
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Post by hgtsang on Jul 13, 2007 11:14:46 GMT -5
Hi Libby - I think I know what you mean by 'engage' (e.g., use muscles to control ths speed/stride, vs. going balls-out). Is that what you mean? Or, is there another meaning? Thanks Dan Another way to think about going downhill is to engage! Engage your muscles, especially those around your knee, like the quadriceps. |
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Post by wildrunner on Jul 13, 2007 12:12:01 GMT -5
yeah, that is exactly what i mean...
also, i always stretch each leg muscle group 60 seconds after a run. it can be hard to make it a habit, because it is kind of boring, but i noticed an improvement in my recovery after long runs when i started stretching longer and more consistantly.
also, sometimes ice can be helpful. after stretching, ice the areas that are especially prone to injury, like knees, ankles, shins... where ever it feels good!
i buy dixie cups, fill them up with water and stick them in the freezer. when you get back from your run, tear away some of the paper so that it exposes the ice.
then you can run the ice along the areas that are inflammed and took a beating. if an area, like the knees, is particularly in throb mode, constant ice is needed... so you should consentrate the ice in the area for 15 minutes or get a bag of peas for that area while you ice the others with the cup.
good luck!
best, libby
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CDP
New Member
Posts: 2
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Post by CDP on Aug 21, 2007 23:00:14 GMT -5
Hey Dan...after a bad ankle sprain last year, I've done a lot of rehab...Lots of "toe raisers" one foot at a time will strengthen the ankle and calf...Balance and some strength can come from standing on one foot for as long as you can...then try it with eyes closed!....Overall, the quads and feet do take a beating coming down hill...Best thing to do is practice running down hill to work those muscles. Absent any nearby hills, try a treadmill with the back raised up simulating downhill, or a lot of lunges can work the quads which will help the knees...If you have a parking garage nearby, try running up and down...stairs are good too...God speed to you...
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Post by thr3ee on Aug 22, 2007 10:59:29 GMT -5
Dan, Downhill technique is definitely something you should read about, but also something you will need to experiment with yourself to really "feel" on different types of terrain. There are some universals like not leaning back and "breaking" with your heals as that will basically jar your knees. I am like Rick in that I use a short, quick stride, stay as perpendicular to the slope as possible and let gravity set my speed. However, I have practiced this for years and I am also a short, compact runner with big thighs. I know some of my taller, lankier friend's bodies simply won't let them move downhill the way I do (but, d**n, if I could keep up with their uphill power-hiking stride!). You will need to find what works for you and practicing on different types of hills is important. I run with different strides depending on whether the hill is moderately steep or really steep, has switchbacks or goes straight down, is rocky or is smooth, is singletrack or fire trail...you get the idea. As for ankles, I think there are some good suggestions already posted and you can find more ankle strengthening exercises if you do some searching. You also need to give yourself some time here. I had really bad ankles from years of playing soccer and, over time, have actually found that trail running has greatly strengthened them. However, when I first started hitting the trails about a decade ago, I was always cognizant of where and how I was stepping. The more I ran on uneven surfaces without rolling them, the stronger they became. I think I now have the best of both worlds: over-stretched, flex-y ligaments backed by strong supporting muscles  Welcome to the trails! |
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Post by ultragirl on Aug 22, 2007 17:21:42 GMT -5
IT is definately a learning experience. I am not one to be able to let gravity pull me down hills, or run down them. I have knee/IT issues and my body says I cant do that...I will be hobbling along towards the end if I did that...I Sort of shuffle,skip and still sometimes..it will bother me. I still have not found the most effective way to go about it but that is what experimenting is all about.
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Post by ultrajegi on Aug 22, 2007 21:11:13 GMT -5
Steve is a definite authority on anything downhill. He's just flying, it's amazing. I second what he's saying. In my words:
* Focus on being loose. I find that you can consciously relax your muscles, which can help relieve pain, especially on moderate downhills. I have to disagree there with the earlier post (although different things can work for different people).
* Lean (easier said than done, start trying on easy downhills)
* Short stride & fast turnover! The shorter stride actually will reduce the impact.
I've ran some very technical courses, and the more difficult the terrain becomes, I believe the more important it is to be relaxed. Basically you want to avoid applying forces on your foot other than perpendicular to the ground - otherwise the risk of slipping becomes greater and greater. The lower those forces, the smaller the impact of a slip, and the easier it is to catch it. It also turns out to be much easier on your ankles etc. Of course you have to brake at some point, but the turnover and short stride will smoothen things out more.
There's a book that my Podiatrist recommended, "Chi Running" which had some interesting concepts that can help with issues that lead to problems. It focuses a lot on running posture, keeping your body straight (no bending at the hip) and such. It's worth a read, I think.
IT band issues can be fixed in many cases. I used to have very bad IT band knee pain (excruciating), but found a massage therapist who was able to wipe the pain out in just one or two treatments - amazing (let me know if you're interested, he's practicing out of Los Altos). I've done Wasatch since ... he's now a firm part of my pre-race prep.
As for ankles - I have always used orthotics, and I am a very strong believer that very good orthotics can make a huge difference. The only good orthotics I found here are from Dr. Hannaford, they're unfortunately not cheap, but they're really good. Some of those problems (knee problems as well) could be related to bad foot support - it's worth looking into it and see if there's a need. Hannaford is an experienced ultrarunner himself, so he actually knows what he's talking about ...
Happy Running,
Beat
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Post by eseidler on Aug 22, 2007 22:36:45 GMT -5
Hi Beat,
Recently, you responded to a post and mentioned a massage therapist who helps with your IT band problem. I am dealing with a low grade issue that will get much, much worse if I don't stay on top of it with ice, rolling with a foam roller etc. A good massage therapist would be excellent for pre-race prep like you mentioned. Care to share his contact info? Would be much appreciated!
Erik
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Post by ultrajegi on Aug 22, 2007 23:16:27 GMT -5
Absolutely. I doubt he'll mind His name is Angelo dela Cruz, he practices in the FIT studio in Los Altos (That's on Foothill and Springer, next to the Andronico's there). The treatment is not cheap, but IMO very worth it. His phone # is 408-504-1617 and the location is 600 Rancho Shopping Center Los Altos, CA 94024 One thing to note is that Angelo does not do deep tissue massage. The methodology (Hendrickson(?) method) is much less painful but at least for me personally much more effective. His stuff is very targeted, and he can give you great tips on effective stretching, too. Anyways, his stuff really works for me. Hope this helps! Thx, Beat |
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Jon
Full Member
Posts: 183
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Post by Jon on Aug 22, 2007 23:20:44 GMT -5
As for ankles - I have always used orthotics, and I am a very strong believer that very good orthotics can make a huge difference. The only good orthotics I found here are from Dr. Hannaford, they're unfortunately not cheap, but they're really good. Some of those problems (knee problems as well) could be related to bad foot support - it's worth looking into it and see if there's a need. Hannaford is an experienced ultrarunner himself, so he actually knows what he's talking about ... I've seen Hannaford too and highly recommend him to others. Curious, how often do you replace your orthodics? |
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