Skline to the Sea ?'s

[dementedfatty]

What's going on everybody! I am thinking about doing the Skyline to the Sea 50k as my first step past a marathon. I just ran a marathon today with a new PR of 4:07:32 (not bad for a Clydesdale) and was wondering if this length is feasible/a good idea. I train in Auburn, CA trails so I am used to hills so should I just go for it or sign up for the marathon length instead? Any views and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

-Mitch

[GP]

You're a Clydesdale and just did a marathon yesterday with a new PR. Presumably it was a road marathon? You need to recover from that effort. You don't have to worry that you can go long enough. Training for a 50 KM is essentially the same as training for a marathon. Your last run, the marathon, is as long as anyone needs to train for a 50KM.

However, are you trained for running trails? Hills? Running downhill? Fueling and hydrating throughout a race with aid stations 6 miles apart, rather than 2 miles?

If I were you and wanted to do my first trail 50 km 4 weeks after a hard raced (road?) marathon. I would concentrate on recovering and keep my runs short peaking with a semilong run/hike, midway between the races.

Get Pete Pfitzinger's book "Advanced Marathoning" and read the sections on recovery and doing repeat marathons close together. The 50KM is essentially a marathon, but on trails. If you can't get the book, much of what Pfitzinger has written is on runningtimes.com. Pfitzinger writes "If you are less than 4 weeks between marathons...your main concern should be recovery, recovery and more recovery, not only from your first marathon, but also from the lobotomy that led you to come up with this plan."

Maybe you should postpone your 50 KM to a later date? If not...

This week concentrate on easy activities like walking, easy bike rides or deep water running. Start thinking about your race day needs and do some internet reading about running 50KM. This is absolutely a recovery week! Do nothing hard! Get plenty of sleep. Avoid all stressors!

Next week, start to run (easy) and mix in hiking on trails. You are still in recovery, so concentrate on hiking all hills and running in between on easier spots. Don't run to much. Hike mainly. Practise drinking and fueling

Third and race weeks, you are tapering and still recovering. Don't underestimate your need for recovery. Some people can run a marathon every week, but that's because they've run high volumes for many, many years and aren't racing. i.e. they are essentially running these races as long training runs. You just set a PR, and you had to carry a large load doing it, so you had to put out a good effort. Your endocrine system is trashed and you are vulnerable to colds and injuries for the first month after your race. Concentrate on recovery.

Good luck and congratulations.

[dementedfatty]

Thanks for your input! I was wondering if the 4 weeks would hurt me as well. As for your question whether I have trained on trails, that would be a yes. I have been running on the Auburn sections of the Western States since I live about 10 miles from them. I was actually training for the road marathon I just did by trail running 3 times a week and 2 days of road. So I might just wait till the May 50k's or something like that so I can recover. I hate how your body feels fine after running but you need to stop yourself from running to recover Thanks.

[mweston]

It all depends, mostly on what works for you, which we can't really predict. My course PR at the Pirate's Cove 50K was the time I did it one week after the Muir Beach 50K, which was one week after the Woodside 50K. Of course I did almost nothing between those three races, and I don't generally race quite 100% (so I wasn't totally torn down).

So if you want to try it, go for it. Do mostly recover from now until then, though if you have the opportunity to do a really long descent this coming weekend (still 3 weeks out), that wouldn't hurt.

If you do sign up, maybe I'll see you out there. I'm signed up.

[GP]

Read MWeston's comment carefully. He can run 50KM's weekly because...
1) He has been running a lot of them and a lot of long training runs. He's a cagey veterano. His endocrine system is used to it.
2) He (wisely) doesn't race all of those 50KM's. If he responds further, I'll bet he'll tell you that he was treating at least some of those 50KMs he mentioned more as training runs. Probably for some Herculean effort, like running around the world in 59 days.

I think that if you feel fine now, and as you say, you've been running a lot on trails, go ahead and run your 50KM. Just don't consider training hard in the next few weeks and pace yourself. Go slow and enjoy it.

Really concentrate on carrying and using enough fuel and rehydration drinks. You are a big guy, so factor that into any advice you get from pee wee's. You need more fuel and more liquid. You'll have to figure that out for yourself, so make this a learning experience and let someone else have the spiffy blue ribbon. Also, it could get hot, so factor that possibility into your plan, because big guys suffer more in the heat.

I also hope to see you there. Good luck to both of you.

P.S. the preceding lecture was directed more to me then to you. I'm approaching senility and have to constantly remind myself to use common sense . By lecturing others, I don't appear to be talking to myself.

[JJ]

I wish I would have followed GP's advice.

I am in the same boat. I am a bigger runner who just set a PR in a road marathon a couple of weeks ago and signed up for skyline to the sea. I thought that I could just keep pushing the miles since the marathon was just another long run. Last week when I should not have done anything, I started hitting the hills and now have achilles and IT band issues, which I have never had in my life before...

Take it easy.(I think you could still do it though)

[dementedfatty]

Thank you for all the great (and fast) responses! I hope to see you all out there as I dip my toe in the 50k world.

[GP]

JJ
Use google.com and do an advanced search using the phrase "trigger point therapy" and either the words achilles tendonitis or iliotibial band.

Trigger point therapy has helped me with achilles and other issues. Seems to stop Posterior Tibialis shinsplints in their tracks if applied as soon as you start feeling the pain.

Basically, you massage your lower legs deeply until you find a very sore spot (or use the online diagrams to go right to the spot) then push your thumb into the spot. It will hurt for a moment, but then you'll get relief as the trigger point "releases". Trigger points in the Soleus (deep calf) refer pain to the achilles and even to the bottom of the feet. Proponents of Trigger point therapy believe that many of those diagnosed with achilles tendonitis or plantar fasciatis really just have tight Soleus muscles with trigger points needing release. Even if there's true pathology to the achilles, it was probably preceded with tight calf muscles. I'm sure that's true of my prior blown achilles (out of running 4 months~~be careful) and my current bilateral bursitis at the achilles insertion at the heel as I had calf tightness and strains preceding both.

True, and advanced, I.T. band gives you severe pain on the outside of the knee. It's probably the worst pain I've ever had from a running injury (including stress fractures). A friend of mine, misdiagnosed a torn meniscus as I.T. Band syndrome. If the pain is in the hip, it's probably bursitis. Who cares. Read up on cause and cure.

Basically, the I.T. band is a long big tendonus sheath on the side of the leg. Unfortunately, it has a very small muscle, the tensor fascia lata, that contracts pulling on the "band" (gluteal muscles also act on it). Certain actions, like running on highly canted ranch/logging roads, cause the muscle to become overloaded and it goes into contracture (cramps). When it cramps, it pulls the IT tight over the knee, so there is friction under the band when the knee joint flexes and extends. The pain comes because the underside of the band at the knee is loaded with nerve endings. OUCH!

Stretching can cause relief (look for illustrations of IT band stretches), but if the muscle operating the band is torched, the relief is momentary. If you get stuck out in the woods and can't get it uncramped it can become to painful to even walk. In that case, turn your foot so it points 90 degrees outward and you will get immediate relief. I used that to walk about 4 miles on an IT with a muscle in complete contracture.

See if you can find an illustration for a trigger point related to your IT band. Diagnose what action likely caused your problem (besides training too hard right after your marathon) and correct it (i.e. avoid highly canted roads, or slalom them so you never are running with one foot constantly down). Do your IT band stretchs and other therapy. Good Luck.

[GP]

P.S. JJ

The marathon wasn't just another long run, because you raced it. Almost anyone can do a marathon if they don't race it. You cruise from aid station to aid station, chit chatting and indulging in the fine cuisine. You could do a marathon every day that way.

When you race a marathon (you got a P.R., therefore you qualify as having raced) you torch your immune system as well as your muscles.

It may seem like I'm being excessively redundent on this point, but it's necessary, because although it's a simple concept to grasp intellectually, on an emotional basis, we males just don't get it. We're the products of millions of years of evolution and the effects of testosterone, which combined funnel us into jumping at any challenge, no matter how ridiculous, like a bull charging a red cape. It doesn't help when other guys are telling us "ya, go for it dude", or "don't be a whoosh, just do it".

Females don't seem to have this emotional conflict with intellectually simple and sensible ideas. This is why I prefer to train with them. They help keep me out of trouble, rather than inspiring me to jump into it. Unfortunately, my body has been trashed by decades of stupid actions. Hopefully, it's not to late for you. Find some fast women and chase them. ;D

[JJ]

Thanks for the advice GP! I will investigate the TPT.

[mweston]

If he responds further, I'll bet he'll tell you that he was treating at least some of those 50KMs he mentioned more as training runs.

They're pretty much all training runs, though currently without a definite goal. I very rarely run very long on my own, so I just do lots of PCTR events.

You are a big guy, so factor that into any advice you get from pee wee's.

I am too. Not quite an official clydesdale, but way closer to that than a pee wee.

It doesn't help when other guys are telling us "ya, go for it dude", or "don't be a whoosh, just do it".

While I am male, I do have the advantage of being 49 and not having been a runner at all until about 3 years ago. So while I do jump into challenges in terms of distance, I don't jump in in terms of intensity.

[c2ultra]

Hey everybody,

Skyline to the Sea will also be my first Ultra (or marathon for that matter) and I was just curious what you guys consider the cut-off for a clydesdale would be? At 230+ I think I am well above but am just curious.

Thanks,

-Charles

[mweston]

Hmmm. I hadn't looked it up before but had assumed it was 200 pounds for men. Doing a bit of web searching says that it is not standardized, though it sounds like 200 is the highest cutoff. I'm currently mid 180's.

At 230 the descending is going to be a lot of strain on your quads and your knees, I would think, so take it easy and remember that you have 8 hours.

[dementedfatty]

Mar 23, 2010 17:47:00 GMT -5 c2ultra said:

Hey everybody,

Skyline to the Sea will also be my first Ultra (or marathon for that matter) and I was just curious what you guys consider the cut-off for a clydesdale would be? At 230+ I think I am well above but am just curious.

Thanks,

-Charles

Good to see another Clyde will be joining the run!

[GP]

The Clydesdale qualifications aren't standardized. It depends on what the race promoter wants to call it. Sometimes they use other names, especially for the ladies (like Athena's)~~~a contentious topic. Better to refer to the ladies as greek goddesses, than huge horses. Less black eyes that way.

Here's something you guys would enjoy using:

academic.udayton.edu/PaulVanderburgh/weight_age_grading_calculator.htm

Charts for adjusting race results to reflect age and sex differences are all over the place. They're quite accurate too, when used on road races. But the URL above will take you to a chart that also attempts to adjust for weight. You can compare yourself to the ideal runner (25 years old and 110 lbs if female, 143 lbs if male).

Keep in mind, these charts are based on hundreds of thousands of race results for distances from 5K to the marathon. However, a trail ultra is a horse of a different color. Still, the handicaps of age and weight remain and this will give you some idea of it's extent.

P.S. I'm low 170's now, would be low 190's if I was spending more time in the weight room instead of the trails and probably 210 if I cut back my exercise to "normal" (a.k.a. next to nada?) Maybe you big lunks can drop 20 lbs if you keep going long. You'll feel like a butterfly if you do!!!!!