Skyline to Sea questions

[Allen]

I'm planning to run the Skyline to Sea 50K this year. Having never run an organized distance race before I have a couple questions:

1. What is the best way to carry water on long runs like this? Is there a better solution than a camelback? I typically don't run more than 10K so I don't normally carry water when I run, but i know camelbacks can bounce around a lot.

2. What are the trail conditions like now - is it likely to be real muddy this weekend, and on race day? I'm thinking about doing the first half as a training run this sunday, but if it's muddy I'd probably go somewhere else where it's dry.

Allen

[GP]

Allen

You'll probably get a lot of people suggesting you choose a much shorter distance for your first trail race, especially since you say you "typically don't run more than 10K". However, you may be one of those guys who goes out and hikes all day on the weekends with 25 plus mile days. If that is the case, and if you are planning to walk most of the 50KM, you can do it as long as you run enough to finish before the cutoff (or, hell, whenever you want. It's your run ;D).

However, if that isn't the case you should listen to "a lot of people suggesting you choose a much shorter distance". I'll be the first: Allen, choose a much shorter distance, You are too young to die.

You need to build your mileage up gradually, and so too, the length of your long runs. You can't go 10K to 50k, like you can go 0 to 60 mph in 40 minutes in a Toyota Prius. Well, you can, but you'll crash and burn for sure.

What form of hydration gear you use is a matter of personal choice, formed by experience. You need to spend time on the trail trying different gear, while you are preparing yourself to run greater distances. Do a lot of reading, then try the suggestions, or any ideas of your own, out on the trail. You need to learn about hydration and fueling and you do that by practising on long training runs.

The trails should be fine by 4/18.

[mweston]

I'll be the second, unless "I typically don't run more than 10K" actually means sometimes you run 20+ miles. But that seems unlikely, or you would have a hydration strategy figured out by now. And an electrolyte plan. And a fuel plan. And so on.

Also, if mud is going to keep you away, that's another sign you aren't ready for this. If it isn't mud, it's heat, or cold, or something.

Note that I'm usually the guy who says go for it! But in this case, where the shortest distance offered is a marathon, and they really won't be set up to handle people dropping out (since it's a point to point, the logistics are harder), I say sign up for a medium (20K, plus or minus) distance at another PCTR event. And then work your way up.

[acurrano]

I guess I should have been more clear...I'm not one to toot my own horn much, but I guess it was inevitable that without more context people would think I'm nuts.

I may be a novice to long runs but I'm not a novice to long days on the trail or in the mountains. I'm used to hiking and climbing in the backcountry where you are totally on your own, no support, no aid stations, no road 100 feet away, and no park lot at the halfway point with a phone booth and a restaurant/store/gift shop/ranger station. To me this seems like the perfect first 50K or marathon or whatever. I'd do it on my own but I figured why not do it when everyone else is doing it and you don't have to carry all your food and water the whole way, plus you get to meet a bunch of other crazy people.

I have done plenty of 20-30 mile days in the mountains, carrying backpacking and/or climbing gear - just typically not running as it's hard to run very far with a 40 lb pack. Last July I did about 32 or 34 miles on this exact trail (very similar route to the 50K course) with a 20 lb pack and ran at least half of it, over a day and a half. The first day was 10 miles, the second day was either 22 or 24, I'm not sure. I've been planning to run the whole thing ever since. I found it was a very easy trail to run even with a pack, mostly downhill, much of it nice and soft, friendly terrain, not too hot, and a lot of fun. I'll be doing the first half this weekend as a training/trial run so we'll see how it goes.

My hydration strategy is to use a camelback, and stay hydrated, so I don't die. I also plan to eat things now and then so I don't get hungry and bonk, or die. So far that strategy seems to work pretty well for me. But I've found that camelbacks bounce around a bit when you run, so I was wondering if any of you more experienced distance runners had found it works better to just carry bottles strapped to the hands, or a hip pack, or whatever. I'd appreciate any advice on this topic.

My training strategy for this race is to run 5 miles last week, and do 15 or 20 this Sunday on the exact same trail the race is on, maybe one more long run before the race, and to be in really good shape overall (via crossfit type training as well as occasional road and trail runs, long hikes, etc) so I can do stuff like this on a whim without dying.


I'd rather not run in serious mud, that's just personal preference. Where I live, when the trails get real muddy it's basically impossible to run without injuring yourself. Maybe I just don't have the right spikes or whatever, but sorry if that makes me a whimp. A little mud isn't a big deal, I just don't want to be ankle deep or sliding around a lot. I guess that's unlikely down there but in contra costa county the trails get pretty bad when it rains.

See you all out there!

[GP]

Glad to hear you aren't crazy as we imagined!

I come from a background of Alpine climbing and used long (25 mile and more) hikes to get in shape for it. If you've been doing that, you'll have no problem with a 50 KM. provided you remember that you are mainly trained for hiking not running. Don't go out there and try to beat us all to the chili at the finish. Run enough to make the 4 and 8 hour cuts and be happy finishing the d**n thing!

Don't worry about mud. Don't worry about anything, just plan for everything and laugh it off when you find something you didn't plan for. We haven't had rain for about 2 weeks and under those conditions trails dry out real quickly. Even if it rains hard next week, we'll still have a couple of weeks before the race and it rarely rains after the first week in April. I ran 24 miles on Skyline trails 3 weeks ago, after heavy rains, and the only really bad parts were in the Peters creek area which is flat and gets boggy. Despite submerging my feet to the ankles three or four times, I ran 19 miles before changing socks (yah, that was kind of sissy stopping to change them, but it was just a training run). Mud is part of the fun!!!! I'll tip the race director if we get a lot of mud! ;D Alas, I ran a couple of miles on the Skyline to the Sea Trail, but quit it because it was totally lacking in mud. Drat!!

Don't listen to any of us, you'll just get confused! I love my waste belt that cradles my bottle like a baby on it's side. My wife has one and hates it. I think the belts with the tiny bottles (Amphipods) make you look like a St Bernard, but they are really popular.

My wife likes one hand held bottle, but finds it dificult to blow her nose with two. Some people are afraid to run with just one, because they fear they'll become unbalanced and run off a cliff. Others are afraid their arms will snap off after running 30 miles with them. Run with one and you can switch hands, relieving arm tiredness, but then you'll worry about something else.

Buy some equipment (after checking the stores return policy ) and try it on the trails. REI will take anything back, even if you run it through a paper shredder. Buy it, try it and if you don't like it, return it. But for heaven's sake, don't try a new system for the first time in a race. You'll be obsessing over how much you don't like it and it will weigh on you. Your competitors, like jackals, will sense your unease and feed it "Oh, you have the hydration belt 2000? My best friend wore one in a race and ran off a cliff when her arm got locked in it". Don't risk it man!

If your camelback doesn't have a chest and waist strap (they're so small, chest and lower chest straps might be a better description) try fitting it with one. I've run with camelbacks, day packs and two day (midsized) packs and found if you cynch both the waist and chest straps down, they don't bounce much. YOu like the camelback, you are used to the camelback, why desert the camelback? My god man, it's like your wife by now. Show some loyalty. Just fix it up a bit and live with it. Of course, if some sexy new equipment came your way, after a sufficiently long affair...

In the Normandy invasion, the floating tanks all sunk. We still won. Plan and test as much as you can, then forget it. It's in God's hands. Just run. ;D Good luck friend.

[mweston]

For hydration I like my Ultimate Direction Wasp, but you should try out whatever you're going to use ahead of time. If it's at all warm you'll want more than 20 ounces, since there is one long section later in the race.

One more factor that can affect a long run but not a long hike: bleeding nipples. There's a special product called Nipguards, or waterproof bandaids can also work.

The trails should be quite dry this weekend for any training run you may do.

[acurrano]

Allright, that's more like it. GP - I laughed out loud through most of that post. Look forward to meeting you in person.

I think I'll just go with the camelback then...It even has straps already. Those belts with teeny little bottles look pretty silly to me too.

However, I now have a couple more questions for you experts out there:

1. Does a good thick matte of chest hair protect from the horrors of bleeding nipple syndrome?

2. Should I break out my new five-fingers on race day, or stick to my trusty full grain leather mountaineering boots?

[nmrajotte]

hey Allen,
Good luck on your first 50k, it will be mine too. As far as hydration, check out nathan products. Specifically the HPL020 race vest. It's super light and sticks to you. I have run in camelbacks and don't really care for them. Check out the nathan products though. And definatly try REI their return policy is the best. You can try different gear without being stuck with it.

Good luck

[GP]

Accurano. You querry:

"1. Does a good thick matte of chest hair protect from the horrors of bleeding nipple syndrome? "

"2. Should I break out my new five-fingers on race day, or stick to my trusty full grain leather mountaineering boots? "

Since it's not bear hunting season, I suggest you wear no shirt at all ;D. With all that fur, you don't have to worry about cold or sunburn, so why add the extra few ounces. Bleeding nipples solved for you! However, a few of the fastest male runners are known to get aroused by such sights and that will probably lead to their getting bleeding nipples. That gives us all a better chance. Leave the shirt at home.

Heavy leather mountaineering boots are hopelessly retro. Go to REI and rent some plastic mountaineering boots (get canary yellow if they have them). That way, your feet will be totally sheltered from the mud, and if we have an ice blizzard, you can take your crampons off your camelback (don't forget to pack them!) and clomp to a victory while your competitors all slipslide off the trail.

The other option is fraught with peril , but if it succeeds you will finish quicker and in better condition. Try to ignore the mud and out run the blizzards by wearing running shoes. Make sure the shoes aren't fresh out of the box. At a minimum, wear them on at least 3 other runs including one of at least 10 miles. If it's a new model shoe for you, wear them 6 times before the race (6 is a magic number! ;D) I prefer Adidas trail shoes because they've worked for me for about 20 years and they are flexible. Most trail shoes are far too stiff. Many successful runners use regular street shoes (not wingtips , road running shoes).

[acurrano]

thanks for the advice everyone....I have a pair of inov8s that are broken in and should work fine with my crampons. The Nathan hydration thingy looks a lot like a camelback, and I already have 4 of them (various brands) so I'll stick to what I have for now. Looks nice though! And yes, I'm an REI member, have been for years. I've probably returned more stuff than I've bought there.

So...no shirt, camelback, inov8's, crampons...maybe a pemmican bar or two and I'm good to go!

[acurrano]

Did the first 15.5 of Skyline to the sea trail yesterday - Saratoga gap to Big Basin Redwoods state park. Trail conditions are good, very little mud, and a few downed trees here and there were the only real obstacles.

I did well for the first 11 miles (about 2 hours, ran all of the flats/downhills, walked a lot of the uphill parts), but had to walk the last 4.4 miles due to right knee pain and some cramping in the right leg. Next time I'll try more gu and electrolyte replacement as I think that was factor - I hit a wall pretty suddenly about 2 hours in where my knee started really hurting and muscles felt really tight. My platypus "camelback" worked well, didn't need the crampons after all, and nipples are thankfully unscathed.

Apparently my strategery could use some improvement - I went with plain water and a clif bar, which was hard to get down, but my friend gave me a gu and shot block which seemed to work a lot better. Next time I'll go that route and use cytomax in the water too, and see how it goes.

Total time was 3:36. Inov8's performed well, this was my longest "run" to date in these or any other shoes. Not sure if I'll be doing the 50K, we'll see how the next training run goes...

[GP]

Outstanding trip report Accurano. I found it far more interesting and informative than many "Survivor Man" episodes. ;D

Since you've already done this part of the run, perhaps you should petition for a partial rebate and permission to start in Big Basin?

[acurrano]

Since at least on person liked my earlier trip report, I thought I'd post my TR for this past sunday's Epic Training Run at Rodeo Beach with a friend who I'll call "Dan". Our intention was to do a 30K similar to the "official" 30K that they did there recently. However, as you will see, that did not come to pass. We started with high spirits, cool temps and cloudy skies, and ended up fighting for our very lives.

We ran for 2+ hours in gradually worsening conditions. I was glad to have dressed warmly, with tights and 2 layers on top, but Dan's choice of fashionable running shorts unfortunately proved inadequate for the ever worsening wind, driving rain, and near freezing temperatures that we encountered. We were forced to abandon our grandiose plans for a massive ridge traverse linkup as the hurricane force winds threatened to blow us off the ridge, pelting us with freezing rain and spindrift.

Once we gained the main ridge, every exposed surface of our bodies was soon coated with rime ice, while the ferocious winds began picking us up and tossing us about like rag dolls. With heavy hearts, we reluctantly headed down, in a desperate bid for survival, crawling on our bloodied, battered hands and knees. Disappointment and even more desperation set in when we were unable to locate the high camp the Austrian team had abandoned in '75 when 2 members of their party perished.

Dan bravely soldiered on in spite of quickly worsening symptoms of frostbite and severe hypothermia. Meanwhile, I was suffering from the worst case of Low-Altitude Pulmonary Edema (LAPE) either of us had ever seen. However, I selflessly gave him my extra hat, enabling him to retain enough heat that his limbs continued to somehow function, and he regaled me with off-colour jokes about the disastrous Austrian ascent, enabling me to cough up the worst of the sputum. We rapidly descended via the french col, and my coughing subsided with the dramatic change in altitude from 400' to 150'. After sucking down another Mocha Clif Shot with 25 mg caffeine, we somehow mustered enough energy to continue.

And so it was that, in continually worsening conditions, now soaked to the bone, battered, demoralized, and completely and utterly exhausted from our 2 hour and 18 minute ordeal, we staggered back to the car, heroically and miraculously completing our self-rescue. More than anything, we were thankful to be alive, and glad we had once again escaped the cruel grasp of the reaper. Also, we were happy to have avoided the horrible choice that we would have had to make, had we been out there in those conditions any longer: certain death at the hands of this cruel spring storm, or having to ask a middle-aged woman who passed us on the trail if we could use her cellphone to call for help.

[katemojo]

we were driving to Marin Sunday- it was an epic storm- cannot imagine how it must have been out on the trails. Glad you survived.

[starchy]

The trails were intense indeed up north on Sundary - I managed a, er, brisk eleven miles in Sonoma, just barely diving back into the car before the hail started. I can't say it wasn't an adventure, but next time I'm taking along a ton-ton and a lightsaber.